Tip - [SEMI-EFFORT] Armor Reforge: Ancient vs Renowned (out of dungeons) (2024)

Introduction

Why can Ancient and Renowned be compared?

Ancient has been the most popular armor reforge for physical damage ever since its release, due to the good amount of Strength it gives and its unique effect that gives up to +50 Crit Damage depending on the user's Catacombs level. While Renowned has significantly weaker stats, it is occasionally used for its unique effect that gives +1% to most stats to give a tiny boost to stats such as Magic Find and Pet Luck, since there are currently no other armor reforges that provides them, making them somewhat useful when out of dungeons. With the release of NPC Tyzzo and his dragon essence shop, Renowned now provides an extra +2% Bonus Attack Speed per level of the Two-Headed Strike perk from Tyzzo, up to +10% at perk level 5. This upgrade makes Renowned give the most Bonus Attack Speed out of all armor reforges, and some players have thus raised the question whether to stick with full Ancient or reforge a few pieces to the newly buffed Renowned, which now has the potential to outclass full Ancient in terms of dps.

Why might Renowned outclass Ancient?

With the Two-Headed Strike perk, Renowned has the advantage of giving high Bonus Attack Speed, which Ancient does not provide, and it is possible to achieve the optimal Bonus Attack Speed level without relying on things such as specific power stones (eg. Itchy / Scorching) or Crochet Tiger Plushie. That allows us to switch to some of the powers that gives significantly more damage (eg. Hurtful) and other pet items (eg. Tier Boost / Dwarf Turtle Shelmet / Minos Relic / Lucky Clover) without sacrificing our maximized attack rate. When out of dungeons, the stats from the power stone can make up for the damage loss from switching to Renowned (higher Magical Power = better), and the pet items can provide us extra functionality or stats (or good financial decision if using tb edrag). Also, the 1% bonus stat from its unique effect also contributes to a tiny damage gain, as well as the tiny Magic Find and Pet Luck boost. An extra advantage is that the +10 Bonus Attack Speed applies on armor pieces of any rarity just like its unique effect, which means that it is still viable when applied to armor pieces of lower rarity (eg. Tarantula Armor) (or your lapis armor?). However, if your Magical Power is too low to make Renowned worth it (higher Catacombs level = need more Magical Power), have not upgraded the perk, or if you have already reached the optimal Bonus Attack Speed level (Shortbow = 67, Melee = 82) without the use of the above items (eg. by using Golden Dragon + Terminator / Enrichments), full Ancient is better for you (and you can skip to the conclusion using alt+f4).

Why only when out of dungeons?

Allowing the use of other power stones which gives more damage while sustaining the optimal Bonus Attack Speed level is one of the main advantages Renowned has. As of the current version, power stones are not boosted by your Catacombs level when in dungeons, while dungeonized gear gets a huge bonus when in dungeons, along with 10% extra stat per star it has. This causes the damage gap between Ancient and Renowned to widen as your Catacombs level increases, and since power stones are not boosted in dungeons it becomes impossible to make up for the damage loss. Also, the optimal Bonus Attack Speed level can be easily exceeded by simply using a Terminator, so there is no point in further increasing it. Not even does the little bit of extra Magic Find and Pet Luck Renowned grants help in dungeons.

Stats Overview

Ancient (Precursor Gear)
Renowned (Dragon Horn)

Theoretical Simulation

In this session, we will compare the stats of 4/4 Ancient with 1-2/4 Renowned + Ancient. Scorched/Hurtful powers will be used.
In order to simulate midgame and lategame, we will compare twice with [500MP & Catacombs 30] and [1000MP & Catacombs 50].
All gear will be assumed to be of the Mythic rarity with 5 stars.

The optimal Bonus Attack Speed for Melee Weapons is 82(0.25s/hit), and the previous one is 54(0.3s/hit).
The optimal Bonus Attack Speed for Shortbows is 67(0.25s/hit), and the previous one is 41(0.3s/hit).
All attack speed would be rounded down to the next tick (0.05s).

Note: Since every player has different base stats and gear, this will only include the stats from armor reforges and power stones in the following simulation. The 1% stat boost from Renowned will also NOT be calculated. This will not be a complete calculation as this post is just to give a general overview of how using pieces with Renowned might be better than using full Ancient.

(Maximized attack speed with Livid Dagger & Terminator)
140*1.1+155 = 309 Strength
120*1.1+177 = 309 Crit Damage
60*1.1+0 = 66% Crit Chance
0*1.1+33 = 33% Bonus Attack Speed (Melee: 0.4s/hit, Shortbow: 0.35s/hit)

(Maximized attack speed with Terminator, 0.2 away from Livid Dagger)
127*1.1+89 = 228.7 Strength
102*1.1+354 = 466.2 Crit Damage
57*1.1+0 = 62.7% Crit Chance
15*1.1+15 = 31.5% Bonus Attack Speed (Melee: 0.45s/hit, Shortbow: 0.35s/hit)

(Maximized single-hit damage)
140*1.1+89 = 243 Strength
120*1.1+354 = 486 Crit Damage
60*1.1+0 = 66% Crit Chance
0*1.1+15 = 15% Bonus Attack Speed (Melee: 0.45s/hit, Shortbow: 0.35s/hit)

(0.6 away from maximized attack speed with Shortbows with Renowned % Bonus)
71*1.1+89 = 167.1 Strength
66*1.1+354 = 426.6 Crit Damage
51*1.1+0 = 56.1% Crit Chance
45*1.1+15 = 64.5% Bonus Attack Speed (Melee: 0.3s/hit, Shortbow: 0.3s/hit)

(Maximized attack speed for Melee)
71*1.1+155 = 233.1 Strength
66*1.1+177 = 249.6 Crit Damage
51*1.1+0 = 56.1% Crit Chance
45*1.1+33 = 82.5% Bonus Attack Speed (Melee: 0.25s/hit, Shortbow: 0.25s/hit)

While [4/4 Ancient + Scorching] maximizes Bonus Attack Speed for Livid Dagger & Terminator,
[1/4 Renowned, 3/4 Ancient + Hurtful] maximizes Bonus Attack Speed for Terminator and is 1 Tuning Point away from Livid Dagger.
However, [1/4 Renowned, 3/4 Ancient + Hurtful] is clearly better in single hit damage.
And by comparing it to [4/4 Ancient + Hurtful], it can be seen it they did not lose much single-hit damage, but deals 1/6 more hits.
As for [3/4 Renowned, 1/4 Ancient + Hurtful], it is 3 Tuning Points away from maximized Bonus Attack Speed for Shortbows.
Although the damage gap is slightly wider compared to all of the above, it deals 2/7 more hits compared to all of them.
For melee weapons other than Livid Dagger, [3/4 Renowned, 1/4 Ancient + Scorched] maximizes their Bonus Attack Speed,
But the damage loss is pretty significant, so you can just aim for 54 if the 1/6 more hits does not make up for the single-hit damage loss.

(9 away from maximized Bonus Attack Speed with Shortbows)
140*1.1+271 = 425 Strength
200*1.1+310 = 530 Crit Damage
60*1.1+0 = 66% Crit Chance
0*1.1+58 = 58% Bonus Attack Speed (Melee: 0.4s/hit, Shortbow: 0.35s/hit)

(Maximized attack speed with Terminator, 0.2 away from Livid Dagger)
127*1.1+155 = 294.7 Strength
162*1.1+620 = 798.2 Crit Damage
57*1.1+0 = 62.7% Crit Chance
15*1.1+15 = 31.5% Bonus Attack Speed (Melee: 0.45s/hit, Shortbow: 0.35s/hit)

(Maximized single-hit damage)
140*1.1+155 = 309 Strength
200*1.1+620 = 840 Crit Damage
60*1.1+0 = 66% Crit Chance
0*1.1+15 = 15% Bonus Attack Speed (Melee: 0.45s/hit, Shortbow: 0.35s/hit)

(0.6 away from maximized attack speed with Shortbows with Renowned % Bonus)
71*1.1+155 = 233.1 Strength
86*1.1+620 = 714.6 Crit Damage
51*1.1+0 = 56.1% Crit Chance
45*1.1+15 = 64.5% Bonus Attack Speed (Melee: 0.3s/hit, Shortbow: 0.3s/hit)

(Maximized attack speed for Melee)
71*1.1+271 = 349.1 Strength
124*1.1+370 = 506.4 Crit Damage
54*1.1+0 = 59.4% Crit Chance
30*1.1+58 = 91% Bonus Attack Speed (Melee: 0.3s/hit, Shortbow: 0.3s/hit)

Basically same as [500MP & Catacombs 30] (Refer to that if you haven't already),
but the gap between power stone stats grew larger while the % gap between reforges shrinks.
[4/4 Ancient + Scorched] is now 45 Tuning Points away from maximized attack speed for Shortbows,
but still slightly worse than [3/4 Renowned, 1/4 Ancient + Hurtful] in terms of damage (Tuning Points spent + more Strength from other sources).
[2/4 Renowned, 2/4 Ancient + Scorched] is now enough for maximizing Bonus Attack Speed, so 3 pieces of Renowned is no longer needed.
However, as the damage loss is still large, you can just aim for 54 if the 1/6 more hits does not make up for the single-hit damage loss.

OR if you are not considering a change in Powers,
you can use

this desmos graph

created by GamingDevil (Go check out their thread

here

Conclusion & TL;DR

With the new Two-Headed Strike perk from Tyzzo, using a few pieces with Renowned might be better than full Ancient when out of dungeons,
unless you have already reached the optimal Bonus Attack Speed level without using armor reforges and pet items.

Plz correct me if you spot anything wrong or if I missed any detail.
Sowwy if bad post >//<
~ r9 thread #1

Tip - [SEMI-EFFORT] Armor Reforge: Ancient vs Renowned (out of dungeons) (2024)

Introduction​

Why can Ancient and Renowned be compared?​

Why might Renowned outclass Ancient?​

Why only when out of dungeons?​

Stats Overview​

Ancient (Precursor Gear)​

Renowned (Dragon Horn)​

Theoretical Simulation​

Conclusion & TL;DR​

References